I just started investing in EvoEstate, I did not do any platform review because I usually wait at least one year and see how it works before expressing my findings. The founders are supposed to be expert in the sector and I wanted to invest in what they invest (plus the Heavy Finance loans as described in my previous post…but wait, did not you say you wait a year before writing about a platform? Sometimes I get carried away, if they opportunity looks good to me). This morning I stumbled on a very well done post about the problems with Housers (unfortunately it is in Italian), I went to check and…yes, some of the EvoEstate skin-in-the-game loans are in Housers…nooooot great.

I do not remember when I read the first time about H, it was years ago. It was one of my fastest paaaaaaaass because of two (very personal) heuristics. The serious one:

  • the returns are low

As I wrote endless times before, anything below 10% hardly compensate the risk of default; if you are wrong, you are not missing anyway a great opportunity. Plus they have lot of hidden fees and taxes for investors (I checked again now after years and seems that the advertised returns are higher).

The somehow less serious one (even if it works as much as the other):

  • they operate in Italy

I am Italian, I have great friends and lot of nice memories back home but if we discuss business, I simply prefer to look somewhere else. Again, I am not saying that every business In Italy is a bad investment, it is just suboptimal: you can find better returns for the same amount of risk, so why bother? Part is due to the legal environment, part to people inclinations, part to the culture. If you add that the rest of Housers projects are based in Spain and Portugal…if I was Housers CEO I would have added Greece so at least I had all the PIGS (yes yes, the OG was Ireland and not Italy, I know).

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

As my D&D Dungeon Master used to say. Housers website has a nice and enticing layout, plus the idea to give retail investors an easy access to buy-to-let properties is a good one: knowing how Italians are obsessed with real estate investing, I can understand why this platform had some success. I tried to find some evidence without any hit but apparently in 2017 Housers raised 900k on CrowdCube at a pre-money valuation of EUR c50mio! To put it into context, EstateGuru was valued less than EUR 30mio and Mintos less than EUR 70mio in 2020. This is to say that with some, even small, changes in the platform, I would be probably here to describe how I lost money and not how a dodged a bullet.

I cannot really comment on the Housers project profitability because I never invested; from a quick research on EvoEstate secondary market, all Housers deals seems to be on time or slight delay, but this might be due to the research and vetting the EvoEstate guys did on them. From what I read in the post I linked and in other reviews around, the picture for Housers direct investors might be more grim.

One of the reasons why Housers is in trouble is related to its founder and former CEO: his management of Housers – the company was not the most responsible, he took a lot of debt and did not repay it on time, he did not paid invoices, he did not develop ‘ancillary’ but critical part of the platform like customer service or project documentations. Other shareholders tried to oust him and that’s when the shit hit the fan: they tried to ‘Saverin‘ him and the fight obviously went to court, which is something you want to avoid when the company is unprofitable and you have to constantly raise money to keep the lights on. Add some fines from the Spanish Regulator for bad management and…voila’ omelette parfait.

What Mr Brusola, Housers founder, did is more the rule than the exception in the start-up world. Fake it till you make it.

And so?

This is a perfect example of the risks I insist you should consider when you invest in these platforms. A risk that has anything to do with p2p, its borrowers, interest rates and the economic environment. A risk that is really hard to quantify and to measure because the elements to make an informative judgement are shared only with the company Board, and sometimes not even there. A platform might lose money and be completely fine (think about Amazon when it was reinvesting all the cashflows to grow the business); a platform might have a profit and be on the verge of collapse (they stop to invest in R&D, customer service or…cook the books?).

You have to approach these investments with your eyes wide open. And try to get compensated for ALL the risks you take, the evident one and the opaque one. What works for me does not have to work for you but you need a comprehensive risk management framework. Take Kristaps Mors: I do not agree with him when he says that is better to invest in three platforms, where you did all the possible due diligence, instead of ten. I do not agree with him when he says that you should not invest in Viventor. Yet I think his process is valid and I find what he writes really informative. As I find those bloggers that do interviews and ‘visits’ to the platforms full of bulls**t, because they never ask the important questions, they are just a marketing stint FOR the platforms, repaid by links and cashback offers.

In this sense, I find the following excerpt from the latest Howard Marks Memo quite on topic:

Importantly, Graham and his less famous co-author, David Dodd, characterized bond management as a “negative art.”  What did they mean?  In general, bond investors’ return is capped at a yield that stems from the promised interest payments and payoff at par upon maturity; that’s why it’s called “fixed income.”  The upshot is that all bonds bought at a 6% yield will return 6% when held to maturity if they pay.  Bonds that don’t pay, on the other hand, will produce losses of varying magnitudes.  Thus, oversimplifying, you improve your performance in bonds not through which paying bonds you buy (since all 6% bonds that pay will have the same return), but through what you exclude (that is, whether you’re able to avoid the ones that don’t pay).

Howard Marks

Equally, the real success in p2p investing is more driven by the platforms that you avoid: the frauds, the scams, the busts. Kristaps point is easy to understand: if you invest in a low number and you do a deep research on them, it is hard that you will end up empty handed. My counter-argument is that I do not have the time to do that type of research, and even if I had it sometimes it is pointless because you can never know what is going on behind the scenes. That is why my platform portfolio is bigger AND I never allocate more than 1% of my Total Net Worth to any of them.

What I am reading now:

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3 Comments

Kristaps Mors · January 19, 2021 at 8:28 am

Good point about P2P platforms and risks, not worth to consider if promised return is <10%.

But what am I missing about Viventor? Any good reason to invest there? Viventor = losing money, losing their investor money, management left, huge conflict of interest with Atlantis (which still is rated: A and cannot pay back loans), overall quality of loan originators and their reporting is lower when compared to Mintos (and I am skeptical about most of Mintos LOs), discounts in secondary market up to 40-50%. The platform is mismanaged and I don't think it will recover, and very likely that the previous owner saw that as well and exited before it collapses.

P.S. Link to my blog is broken

    TheItalianLeatherSofa · January 19, 2021 at 12:45 pm

    YO! sorry for the link, I updated it.
    About Viventor: Before Atlantis bought it was one of my favourite platform, for sure the one with the best returns, close to pure 13%, no cashback, no bs, no secondary market tricks.
    Then Atlantis bought it and you can see it in three ways:
    – previous owner sold before collapse: possible
    – Atlantis has a lot of bad loans on its balance sheet, wants to dump them to retails: possible but unlikely because they paid to buy Viventor and if that’s the strategy, they know their ‘investment’ in Viventor will be a total loss (plus they will lose the origination business as well)
    – Atlantis is an origination company that exist since years, they understand the future of the business is to go vertical and buy Viventor to own the distribution channel as well: that’s the dawg move according to Scott Galloway.
    The Atlantis purchase makes sense to me, and also the ‘cleaning’ they had to do after re-stating some investor profits. Then Covid happened and Atlantis business (like a lot of others) went to shit because they fund other corporate invoices: will they survive? Recent returns on the platform seems to indicate so, pending payments stabilised and profit are going up again. I was actually thinking of stopping autoinvest and start to buy those invoices on the secondary market, not sure if I can automatize it because otherwise the time spent will not justify the return.
    I am pretty happy with Twino as a mono-lender platform, so I do not specifically see any conflict if Viventor will move to that structure, it is pretty clear to me the situation and should be for other investors.

    I invest in these things (and syphon profits regularly out of them) knowing that they can disappear from one day to another, this makes my risk analysis different from someone that has 30% of their savings into the sector (and I am not saying that you are this person). Can be that I am fooled by the good old days of Viventor and I will lose what I have there…but I prefer a Viventor as company that loses money to a Bondora that (allegedly) makes millions every year 😉
    I definitely treasure your opinions because they challenge mine, I am often more wrong than right otherwise I will be writing from one of those Tik Tok Investors yacht eheheheheh

Kristaps Mors · January 19, 2021 at 6:17 pm

If Viventor would move to a model like Twino, Viainvest, etc. – where 1 party controls everything, that would be great, for sure. No conflict of interest and if you as platform owner think long-term – you don’t want to mess with investors, and so far at least twino/viainvest have been good examples of this.

But if it continues to be a marketplace, just with lower quality LOs than Mintos, worse DD, less resources, and the owner/biggest LO messing with investors, then it is doomed.

The main team leaving does not signal to me that situation is improving. Some rumours I heard:
2 weeks ago: “Apart from the CEO also the loan originator relationship manager left viventor in november. And their marketing guy left this month so people are abandoning ship. ”
3 weeks ago: “The CEO and the CFO clashed with Atlantis Financiers. A couple of days later the liaison officer for the LO’s left also. A ship without captain atm.”

Viventor numbers:
Revenue in 2018: 101k EUR, losses: -119k EUR.
Revenue in 2019: 315k EUR, losses: -355k EUR

The purchase of Viventor was done in summer, so after Covid and when everyone should have a clear picture of it’s impact.

My theory: the new owner is not some rich investor, but just an easy way to exit bad investment and dump the problems to some unknown entity. And if Atlantis portfolio is in a bad shape, then for them having control of how debt recovery is happening is perfect – they can do whatever they want (similar to Grupeer and Recollecta). So for old Viventor owner and Atlantis/new owner it is a win-win. Old owner can present it as a good deal – he sold something, has nothing to do with problems right now. New owner can spend whatever they recover from Atlantis how they see fit and if they want to return anything to Viventor investors, it is up to them, no pressure. But for investors – good luck holding the bags.

Here is another comment from a guy who lives in Netherlands:

I’ve never invested in $Viventor since it looked to me like a worse & less reliable Mintos but hey I see some other people have. I’ve been checking a bit, since I’m Dutch, if I could help to see if this company is legit or not. Since I’ve had some dealings with businesses and had my own company I know how to do a bit of research. I’ve checked the Dutch financial authorities register to see if they are allowed to give out loans, currently I can’t find any license that resembles them. Then I checked the Dutch national bank to see if they have a license over there but neither. I’ve also checked the Belgian one since they have an address over there too but can’t find it.
Furthermore I find it specific that have very little reviews. In my previous job I helped people with debt to get out of it, and every collection agency has a shitton of negative reviews since people are pissed that they have to pay. I barely see any reviews, and the main ones I see are fake but hey maybe they are indeed an amazing company.
After this I looked into the structure of Atlantis Financiers, according to Viventor it falls under de Gielen Group (Groep in Dutch) although I can’t find anything with that name on the Dutch chamber of commerce, the only one I can find is a company dissolved in 2015. Now it’s starting to get a bit shady on the structure, and of course I don’t feel like spending money on this so I’m doing it with free resources but it seems that Lotus 597 is the owner of Viventor, a company started in 2019 without any financial reports. The woman who owns it (according to the press announcement of Viventor) named “Sabrina Nathoe” but she seems quite unfindable online, there is only one Facebook account but I doubt it’s her. Lotus 597 also has power of attorney at Paylex BV, another company of Atlantis. My gut feeling tells me that she is a scapegoat. Something else that is a lot of fun is that there are two entities of ViVentor called ViVentor SIA & ViVentor Portfolio 1 SIA registered in 23/07/2020, I’m curious what the latter one is about but looking at the name it could be a bad bank or maybe selling a part of the portfolio for a nice margin. Dunno but I think we’ll find out soon enough.
http://www.afm.nl/nl-nl/professionals/registers/vergunningenregisters
And at the bottom of this page http://www.dnb.nl/toezichtprofessioneel/openbaar-register/index.jsp is the Dutch central bank
Look who signs the annual report storage.googleapis.com/viventor-blog/1/Atlantis-Financiers-N.V.-Annual-Report-2019-short.pdf
Also it’s a financial holding, I think they are not even allowed to any real business activity. I’ll try to look itup
Another interesting aspect is that they offer loans of 16% while the max interest rate in the Netherlands is 14% (www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/bescherming-van-consumenten/vraag-en-antwoord/wat-is-kredietvergoeding-en-wat-is-het-maximale-kredietvergoedingspercentage#:~:text=Als%20u%20een%20lening%20afsluit,sinds%2010%20augustus%202020%2010%25.)
And nowadays even 10% due to Covid
drimble.nl/bedrijf/den-bosch/42488796/lotus-597-bv.html gives a bit more info on Lotus 597, I think that one is the key

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